From Texas & Touchdowns to Finding His Spirit

ben: Hello, everyone. I just wanted to jump in here really quick before we get to our interview with Matt. we met. in-person at a library to record this. And so you'll notice a little bit of difference with the audio, but it shouldn't be distracting Matt is a school counselor and he has. A degree in social work. Uh, we had such a wonderful conversation here.

He was so open and. I don't know. I I'm just really proud to be. working alongside. Him in this work. it was just, uh, awesome to get to know him. Blakely. Wasn't able to join us. We met on a Sunday at the library, and so she was busy doing things with her family and we had. put off and rescheduled this interview so long with it. We just wanted to get in there and get it done and, it's just a wonderful conversation. , also before we get in, I just wanted to ask you for a huge favor. , and leave us a review on apple podcasts or whatever app that you listen on. , it'd be really awesome. We would love to get these conversations out to more people. And that is a wonderful, direct way to help us. In doing that.

So if you just wanted to comment on what it's meant to you or why you listen, or, one of the best episodes, , that would be great. if you want to be a part of this, and do you want to be on the show? We would love to have you, we'd love to talk with you about that. And so you can get ahold of us. at being the work on Instagram. and you can email us directly being the work@gmail.com. Let's get in to this episode. With Matt.

Welcome Matt. It's good to

matt: Yeah. you.

yeah, let's do it. I'm excited

ben: All

right. This sounds weird, but, uh, I think it's funny that, uh, you smell really good.

matt: It's funny 'cause I've actually,

heard that, uh, recently, like as in this week.

and it's not

ben: like,

it's

not like, um. It doesn't

smell like you're trying, like, it just, it's just like clean. '

matt: that. That's good

ben: you just smell clean.

matt: cause I'm not, I'm, I'm,

ben: It's

not like

perfume-y or cologne-y.

It's

like

that's the way you live. Like that's just normal. That's the way, that's

the

way

you

do

it.

matt: He said that's just the way you do it.

ben: That's

matt: That's the way you live.

ben: Like, oh, that's funny.

I mean, it's cool to finally get here.

Yeah. Right?

matt: Long time

coming.

I

ben: mean, it's been

since, I think March.

matt: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

ben: Like late March, I think. 'cause you were getting ready to graduate,

matt: Yeah.

ben: We scheduled it, what, two times at

least. Yeah, I think we, was it, were we late July? Do we have it scheduled in July?

Late July. Yeah. And then I think it was a couple weeks later, we tried. But you started

matt: Yeah. I had a new hire training. Right. So I was like,

I'd rather be at the podcast, but yeah.

[: 00:03:15

---

ben: Did you start work before

you graduated? Is that what you were saying or?

No. You got

hired.

matt: Yeah, I got hired right around graduation and then I started, I did summer school.

Oh, right.

Yeah. So it was like graduation,

then a couple weeks, and then the first day of June.

Yeah.

ben: That's awesome. You got a

job right away. That's so cool. How's it been going?

matt: It's been going good. It's been like, it's definitely an adjustment

going from like school for five years and then going

To work and being like, oh, like, you know, I don't go home and have to study anymore.

Like,

That's

been an adjustment in itself.

ben: You just are expected to know everything now. Right. You're the expert now.

matt: Yeah. I, I hear that.

word at work and I'm like, wow. Okay. Yeah. That's

a, that Like

ben: people telling you, you're the

matt: expert. Yeah.

ben: You're the school Yeah. We have, so our school has middle school and element elementary

matt: school. Oh, But I'm on the elementary side and we have one other counselor.

Oh, Got it, got it. So is that person middle school.

Uh, she's elementary. Then we have a middle. We just have one

middle school it, got it. Okay. So there's two elementary, one middle school. Nice. Nice. Right on.

Yeah. The job itself entails a little bit of everything.

Yeah. Yeah. I'd say social, emotional, and then since our population is a lot of like inner city kids that come from difficult environments a lot, just a lot heavier stuff. But we're

also, do we also do we've been doing classroom lessons. We just started running small groups this week, and those are like, we have my group right now, we're working on confidence.

Then I have an impulse control group and then a self-awareness group that I will be doing. So yeah, a little bit

of really

everything

ben: Is that like the groups, is

it like you just getting together

with kids and having chats, as a small group? Or is it like a whole

classroom lesson?

matt: So we have classroom lessons where we'll go in there and we'll do the whole class, all the

30 kids, and then we have smaller groups where it's like three or four

where we can work with those kids that just need a little.

Smaller, just a smaller group. 'cause a larger group is a lot and they can't

necessarily function or get that

attention that they need.

ben: How big are the classrooms?

matt: they're about, I'd say at least 25, 30 kids.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah.

And every classroom there's a co-teacher in

there. Oh, great. Yeah.

ben: Yeah.

That's awesome. Got it. So then when you go into a

class, to do a lesson on confidence or whatever, then is it the teacher, the co-teacher,

and you

matt: So to be it's me and the other counselor, and then we we tell the teachers that like they can kind of relax,

but if they want to help out with like classroom management, that would be great. But for the most part, we try to give them time to

Just

chill. yeah.

Because they need it.

ben: Take a break. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome.

matt: I think for me, I think the biggest adjustment has been just trying to be taken like serious because

like I'm obviously like the youngest staff that we have,

, you can't outcompete experience like sure. People with have years, but , I still have

matt: something to offer I'm not just

this young guy that's inexperienced, like social work. You grow really fast in social work, like

from Internship,

to stuff like that. Like, we're not just sitting around

like hanging out. Like I've been,

I've been out in, I've been out in the

ben: Yeah. it feels like you get thrown down to the bottom again. Right. Like just got to the top, you graduated and now it's like, okay, cool, I'm gonna go work. And then everybody looks at you like, Aw, you're cute. Yeah.

matt: yeah.

ben: Aw, look at you fresh

matt: face.

That sums it

up so,

so, so,

ben: perfectly.

Oh,

matt: I was trying to find the words to describe it,

ben: But

matt: that's, that's it.

Like, that's that's, that's it Right? there.

A hundred, a hundred percent.

ben: Yeah.

What's that like?

matt: , it's been a humbling experience for sure. But I think our middle school counselor, my, my internship was over there for like, the second half of the semester.

Oh, So I made a real, real good connection with her and she

just always encourages me, she's like, I know it's gonna be uncomfortable, but , use your voice.

, you do have knowledge to bring to

the table. And I've been , gradually.

Getting better about doing that in meetings . 'cause like I'm just, I'm extremely passionate about my kids.

Yeah.

And it's like when you're, I gotta speak up for them.

'cause

or else nobody will. So in those meetings when it's like we're talking about kids and if they're like, yeah, they just, they just don't have any hope. I mean, they're

just not gonna make it. I'm like, well, they're in third grade and fourth grade

they're still like, they Still have a lot of life, to live. So like,

in those

spaces, I've gotten better about speaking up. And even one of my coworkers the other day was like, wow. Like, I was like really impressed that you actually were like

speaking up and they weren't meaning in a bad way. They're just like, normally you're

just like, kind of just like, like you'll nod and it'll be there.

But like, you were actually like

sticking up for your, for your kids.

I'm sitting there. and I'm

like,

I'm like, where the adults in the room? And it's like,

I think of when I was a third grader or fourth grader, I'm like, I hope those conversations weren't happening about me. Because like,

because like, I mean if it was, I proved them

wrong because like I didn't see myself being in this

position or doing what I did, but was like, I'm not gonna write a kid off.

I don't know what this kid's gonna turn it turn into. He

can do a complete 180. I just want to give him the tools to

hopefully like do that.

right, Yeah.

I don't wanna be the other hundredth person that said, no, you're not gonna be able to do it.

[: 00:08:54

---

ben: All right.

, all right. So let's just jump in real quick and get a little bit, , just about, , how you approach the world. So. We asked you to think about like, , what are your strengths?

[: 00:09:08

---

ben: Have you taken any personality tests or anything like that? How do you understand who you are and what kind of characteristics do you bring to life? do you have anything from that zodiac sign that you feel is meaningful to you?

Actually truthful. Blakely will hate me for this 'cause she loves it.

matt: Man, I'm so new to the party on the Zodiac side

thing. Uhhuh.

so, but Im a Gemini.

ben: Okay.

matt: a,

yeah, That's a word.

Yeah.

That That's

a, that that's what it

is. that's a sign.

June Fourteenth's,

That's my birthday.

But people always, say that's not a good one.

Oh,

ben: okay.

matt: So I'm not, I'm not, I'm not too sure about that.

ben: If Blakely were here, she would be able to tell us

matt: Say should be able to give the rundown

ben: much, , a better explanation. But Okay. Off the top of your head, what do you know about Geminis?

Blakely: so Sun Sign, Geminis. represented by the twins. So, , main characteristics would be, a persistent lifetime sense of duality. If we're talking about in the context of , , Mental health, professional, . I could see the, the duality of .

Going back and forth between personal you and professional you,

probably that's something that person would need to pay attention to, to integrate those, because it'll be easy to be two people, the, uh, personal context for me is like my very best friend is a Gemini, but I also know other things about her, like contextually and like her Myers-Briggs definitely overlays on the win thing. INTJ. And so she's pretty intense, and very much struggles with the black and white or has historically

ben: Is that like, um, can you say more about intense?

Blakely: sort of an energy flow that's either off or on either I. Dismissive or obsessed,

just the opposite of what I think a Libra is, which is always seeking a balance and trying to level things

out. Like the Gemini is a, a weaving back and forth a dance with yourself

It's hard because I feel like there are some signs that I know several people, so I can see some kind of common threads.

But in this case, I have one person who I've been very close to

but , I mean, especially in that formative experience of growing up, of outside influences of who you are versus your internal idea of who you are and how those grow together.

I mean, that's true for everybody, but that seems like, a Some of that thing I'm talking about, about like, you have that kind of, that hyper focus thing

is what I'm really into right now and can drop it

like that he's a social worker in particular,

right?

ben: Yeah.

Yeah.

Blakely: Yeah. That like jack of all trades. I, I always have the opportunity to try something else probably appealing.

ben: yeah. Nice.

Well, uh, it's, it's interesting 'cause like I pulled this out, I pulled this out and was like, Blakely is not here and this is her part. don't do this. I don't even know that I.

Blakely: Well, and that's, I need the other personality parts to put the

package

ben: know, right? Like

so we're decontextualizing this

Blakely: such silly one that seems to be true so often that I give it a little bit of credit, but I. I think some of the other ones are a little bit more, um, you know, something.

ben: Sure. Right, right. I mean, I, I'm honest. It's, just fun to do and see like, oh yeah,

Blakely: I know.

I

ben: just think it's

sense. but yeah, no,

Blakely: yeah, got it.

ben: yeah. that's fun. much, , a better explanation. But

matt: I'm am intellectually curious. I do,

I would say that I'm, I am very social but friend group. Very, very small. But

like, if I go into a room, I will I'll talk to anybody and everybody. If

I feel like the con, like if I

feel a vibe, but then I'm also like closed off in various aspects

of my life.

Like

very closed

off.

ben: What

are

some

of,

like,

[: 00:12:56

---

ben: what are you good at? What do you like to do?

Do you have any hobbies?

matt: as far as like strength wise, I feel like I'm extremely, I'm just a passionate person when it comes to like, just like life in general.

Yeah,

Like, I don't know. I'm one of those people that , enjoys life. , it's weird.

like I don't go into my days with like a

like, oh, it's like it's another

day. Yeah, Like I

wake up and I'm like. Like, let's see

what today? Yeah. Like I'm like, let's see what today has to offer. Yeah.

right.

[: 00:13:23

---

matt: Yeah. I'd say extremely passionate,

social. very much so. A family guy. I'm adopted, so my, this is my family, family.

Like I don't

wanna, Right, Yeah.

So, Yeah.

Extreme family guy.

ben: I can't relate to the waking up and going like, I'm awake. It's time to live, . I'm more like, ugh, . I'm tired when I wake up. It takes me a little bit. is that something that you've always felt?

matt: honestly, yeah, from, I'm a kid,

I'm very, I grew up In the church. 'cause I had, like,

I went to Catholic school so I had, I

had to go to church, like my grandparents stuff. But then when I got to high school and experienced some things, then I kind of like took my faith into my own hand, started going to church 'cause I wanted to,

so like I've always, as a kid, I always felt like I had the spirit but didn't know like necessarily like what it was.

And

that was where my energy's coming from. But

now I know that makes a lot more sense why I'm like, yeah, let's see what, see what today has. Yeah.

ben: when you were describing passionate, I heard like a curiosity for life, Like, let's see what's next. And, it didn't, didn't feel like you were saying like,, you wake up , and you're like, SpongeBob squarepants or something where it's like, ha, I'm ready for the day. it doesn't, Didn't sound like you're saying that, but you were like excited to

go see what would happen.

matt: Yeah.

I'm not jumping outta bed by any means,

but like, I'm waking up like, , you know, something's gonna happen today that I'm gonna think about or it's gonna

be meaningful and whatever that

moment is I'm looking forward to.

ben: it feels like you meet the moments with hope, you're not closed off for what's coming at you, each day.

matt: Yeah, no, I think meet the moments like with hope. I think that

like says it perfectly. I hadn't thought of it or like used that

wording like that, but yeah,

[: 00:15:05

---

ben: When we've talked before, you've said something in terms of being ambitious, and driven, I'm just curious how you experience those things. what are you ambitious for?

what are you driven towards

matt: that's a great question, but I think, like for me it's always been my, I got five, I have five siblings, five, five sisters, one brother, seven of us total. And

like, they're like,

they drive me to do just about everything.

And like my two younger siblings, like they're. They're like my world, they look up to me a lot.

Yeah.

And my two little sisters, so drive me from within Because I was like the first one in my family to graduate from my undergrad, but then the first outside of my parents to then go on to get like a master's.

Yeah. And then my mom, she's like, yeah, she's like my superhero.

So it's like, yeah, she, cause

she's just been, she's shown me like re resiliency what it's

like to be like selfless and like just do all and sacrifice

for Yeah.

'cause it's not, I could not imagine seven kids, like, so like to do that and then to adopt three. Out of the four and just that dynamic, but making it all blend and making it work

is like an art of its own in itself.

[: 00:16:23

---

matt: Yeah.

ben: where do you fit

are you

right

in the middle or

matt: like

ben: you older.

matt: so it's, I'm the middle-ish,

but like two, so there's four, four older siblings, but like Analise and Valerie are like a year apart

from me. I guess you said that you got

two younger, Yeah. you're the

third younger? Yeah. Yeah. So there's 25, 26,

I'm 24. And then Kyle's 30 and Sarah I think is 27. And then

Ma-, Maddie, and Caitlyn are the two youngest,

Right.

Caitlyn's a senior and

then Maddie's 21. got it, got it. So 30, 27 something, 24

Yeah. and then, 20, 25 and 26.

[: 00:17:07

---

ben: Tell me about growing up, like when did you meet this found family?

matt: What was

your

ben: whole experience with that?

matt: Yeah. so I was born, born in Texas.

originally had some abuse type situation

with, the birth family got taken out, rightfully so, out of outta the

family and into foster care when I was, I think it was like months into, being born.

Wow. Yeah. So I spent

time in the hospital, had fractured ribs, uh, diagnosed with Shaken baby syndrome.

Okay.

Yeah, basically told that, I'd probably be a vegetable for most of my life. There

wasn't much, hope. have a twin sister and an older brother.

They got adopted together.

I was still with my, foster mom at the time and she was driving me all over Texas trying to get me like the best,

doctors

possible. And my mom that ended up adopting me, my brother has this, um, condition with his hand where it's not fully formed,

so she was on a blog and met my foster mom through that

and, and my foster mom kind of like

plugged me, I guess, and was like, you know, we have this, we have this kid. He's been showing improvement

and like, if you want to come down to Texas and meet him, if you have any interest,

ben: so your mom was on this blog and

matt: like,

ben: met

your foster

mom.

matt: wow. Yeah.

Wow.

[: 00:18:31

---

matt: Yeah, I actually just recently went back and saw my foster mom in March, and we were going through this, going through this story, and she was telling me how, , I was very fearful of

adults.

just from the trauma. She's like, you didn't

like being around anybody. And when your mom came up, we were at a conference and she's like, you weren't even supposed to be at the conference. It was supposed to be a weekend away

for me and her and her husband at the time. so she came my mom showed up and my foster mom was like, Hey. She's like, I was asleep, I was being quiet. My foster mom, like, this is a miracle. Like, you're responsible for whatever happens. Like, if he starts

screaming and spazz it. out, like, You gotta, you gotta figure this out. Oh, no.

And she takes the blanket off we like locked eyes in. I,

I guess it was over like my foster mom, she said she tapped her husband and she was like,

look at this And I was just, in awe of

my mom and Wow.

my foster mom told her, she was like, yeah, that's that. That's your son, you, yeah,

That's it. Yeah.

ben: really cool.

matt: Yeah.

matt: So then we started that process and

I came to Kansas at I think like two, two and a half.

[: 00:19:33

---

ben: when did your family adopt your younger sisters and what was that whole process like?

matt: um. Maddie was adopted young too. Like around, around, around like the same age as

me. So like, I always grew up with Maddie.

Yeah.

And then Valerie, we didn't, , adopt her until she was in middle school.

So I was like a sixth grader. She was like a eighth grader.

Oh, wow, And it was kind of like, Annalise came home with a friend and then she became family, Yeah.

ben: Mean,

[: 00:20:08

---

ben: tell me about your parents. what, what kind, what do they mean to you? obviously you said your mom is your hero.

matt: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm closer with my mom, but it didn't start out like that.

cause my parents split when I was in eighth grade,

but growing up it was like, I was with my dad a lot 'cause he would, play in like softball tournament and stuff like that.

And I just liked going to those and like

going, going like outside. So it was like, spent a lot of time with my dad, growing up. And we would do like the Halloween costumes together. Like there's old

pictures of us doing that and like, we're super close. And then I think, yeah, when the divorce happened, I stayed with my

dad cause my mom went to like Idaho

and that was like 27 hours when I was like, I'm not doing that.

because I had, I was like, I got all, like, all my, both, both sets of grandparents were in Chanute

All my friends. And I was like, I'm not

ready. Right. I'm not ready for That's a really hard

ben: time

to be moving. Like how old you were in the eighth

matt: Yeah. It's Like,

yeah, it was right after, right after my eighth grade year, like transitioning into high

ben: right.

Yeah. I mean that's,

peak years, like whatever you're into got going

like,

That's like a hard transition time. So, yeah, for sure.

So

like,

you were saying that you are passionate and energetic and driven and do you feel like that is modeled by one of your parents or both?

matt: I think, honestly they've influenced me by like just letting me be like who I am.

Yeah.

cause other people in life, have been like, try to be like, all right, like kind of like control that, like you can use it in various like areas or

situations. But like my parents from, I remember our house was always just loud. 'cause there's

nine, nine of us. But then

we are super close with our cousins. My dad's family's there, his side of the family is Hispanic, so we're always in large

crowds. So like, they just

always encouraged and like, let me be

who I was. I didn't realize that it was different or like, not accepted until I got in different environments, like in high school and stuff And I was like,

oh, like am I, am I like being too much right now? Like how do I need to like scale it back because

around my family.

like it is just like we're all like this. Right,

ben: When did,

when

did

you start

noticing that shift or that, that. Change

matt: people

weren't

like letting

you

ben: you.

matt: Um, I think honestly like in middle school.

But I also think that goes to like being in an environment where there's not a lot of people that like look like you.

I think that was a factor, but.

Even more so in high school. ' cause it was like, I felt like people thought they could like control, who I was

ben: Like control in, in, in what way? Like are you talking about put expectations on you? Are you, are you talking like, actually try to limit your, your behavior the way you feel,

matt: Uh, I think a little of both, I

think put expectations, but also like in a small town, like the thing they do is like gossip and talk.

ben: Sure.

matt: it's like hearing things about yourself that are like not true by any means.

And, and hear that it's coming from like, not kids but parents.

It's like, well now why would I, now I don't wanna be myself now.

'cause

obviously there's like an issue about it.

ben: right. Yeah. So it's like I, I'm thinking 10, 11, 12, those years, I'm thinking passionate young. Matt is probably like, he's probably

matt: really energetic.

Like

ben: he

is, buzzing with energy.

matt: Yeah.

yeah.

ben: And so like, I'm, I'm assuming you're hearing from teachers a lot to sit down.

matt: pay

ben: attention, those types of

things. Where am I at? I think you're, you're kind of, you're kind of

matt: on.

ben: Okay. But

matt: I think I was like in between, like I was never

like the class clown. I was

never like, oh, like in the principal's office all the

time. I felt like I knew, 'cause I had older siblings in

school ahead of me. So like I had seen and

learned

and hear their stories and I was like, okay, like I gotta find that line of like, I don't get to the

ben: Sure. Yeah. You

matt: still kind of cut up in

ben: Class,

right.

I'm assuming too that, When it came to the adults at school, that you, I'm thinking about the way that you're talking about, like family. You weren't really that shy

matt: when

it

ben: came

to

like, pushing back on an adult

matt: See, I wish that, I wish that was the case,

but I'm also like, I think confrontation and like that kind of stuff, I was like still so like nervous about and shy about at that

age. Sure.

Like I didn't necessarily like

Welcome that.

Yeah, yeah.

ben: so getting a

little more detailed on that, it feels like. There's a piece of, conflict that's vocal that you're saying you're uncomfortable with. think what

I'm

trying

to

say

is

that

you had your opinions and that it's not like you were offering them

willingly

and openly but you were able to spot it

and

still hold your own opinion and your own self together.

matt: Yeah. Yeah,

I would, yeah, I would definitely a

hundred percent agree with that. I felt, Yeah.

I feel like I've always been able, I think I was gifted with just like getting a read on

people and adults and just when, like you can tell

when they're just BSing you.

ben: the folks that I've met that are helpers, , be it counselors, social workers, things like that. We're socially primed. We want to be in social relationships. we wanna be, a difference in the world. curious

when

you noticed

just small

signs of that.

[: 00:25:40

---

matt: Yeah, I think I see it, I see it in middle school and high school for sure.

I, with just the relationships that I had and

like in friendships that I had, I've always been like the friend that's been like, honestly like the counselor friend, you know, come to me, you can open up, you can share with me and

like, I'll, I'll listen.

Like I'll hear you and I'll actually hear you. I won't hear you to tell you what you need to

do this and that. Like, I will hear you.

But yeah, I think in middle school for sure, I had, uh, a best friend. She, she ended up passing away in high school, but like when we were in middle school, we were having deep conversations, whatever that meant at that time.

But

just like I. just always showing gratitude towards each other and showing like appreciation.

Right.

And like that carried onto high school. I mean, we're having hour long phone calls just talking about life. now that I'm able to look back on it, it was like, yeah, I really enjoyed that relationship piece and like

it makes a lot more sense

ben: right.

matt: I'm at

Now.

ben: Yeah.

What

was that like? I mean, you

matt: obviously

ben: really close with her and then lost her in high school

[: 00:26:41

---

matt: yeah, it was prob, that's the one moment that I look back on like in high school, growing up that I'm like, wow, that has molded the person I am

still to this day. Because it's one of those people that you interact with that just extremely positive,

extremely just a light, just like an encourager,

She saw things in me that I didn't see in myself , she would encourage me and I'm just like, I'm just trying to believe what you're saying. 'cause like, I don't, I don't see that from within

ben: ,

what was she saying?

matt: just

extremely passionate.

you know, you have so much to offer, to this world. you're gonna do like great things.

And it's like freshman year, Matt and sophomore year Matt I don't even know what that means. Like, I'm, I'm like, I'm not, like I'm not,

I'm not, thinking of that or just like,

being like, Hey, like I'm

thankful for you. Like I'm appreciative of you.

we were like brother and sister

ben: Wow. That's awesome. That's special.

matt: Yeah.

ben: That's, that's really special. know. It's like that's that connection that, that even the messages of, of You're, you're important. You're, I don't even know the word exactly. It's like I can't find one that encompasses it at all. she saw something in you

and you trusted it.

there's something about what she was saying and, and who she was to you,

matt: yeah. Like, yeah. Still to this day, the

best friend I've ever, ever had

, how old were you when,

Uh, it was sophomore year, , she had had ACL surgery, I think it was like a year before. She was sick. She was coming

off of, I wanna say bronchitis. It was like her first practice back and she's just really congested.

and then I guess from that time they took her to the hospital and I don't know really what necessarily happened,

what it was. But I just remember leaving practice. ' and getting the call from one of my, one of our friends I can hear, I know that she's crying. And

she's like, Carly's not gonna make it. And I'm like, what are you talk like what are you

talking about? Because I didn't, I hadn't even know. She went to the hospital

and they come pick me up and we go over there and it's us and three other friends that were super close with

her and we see her and it was

just. It's like, yeah, it's like image images that like I have just stored and

like,

blocked off. 'cause I, it was like experience that at that

age. yeah.

But it was just, yeah. It's just a

freak. I don't even, yeah.

ben: Right. Damn.

matt: explain it.

ben: Yeah, man. Sorry

matt: Sorry to bring

it up

ben: right now, too.

matt: I've, I,

I've been to therapy since like, I,

This

isn't my

first time talking.

ben: I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm hearing Blakely in my head going you're always, pulling us into the upside down.

always

matt: hitting

the

ben: elevator,

the basement.

Like, why do you have to be so emotional Like,

I'm

damn it, I did it again.

oh,

let's

get

to

all

that pain. very similar. I had friends

that

would confide in me, and

looking back, I, I don't think when I was in high school

or

even

middle

school, I would

say

that

I

was sensitive,

but I knew I was more sensitive than most people around me.

And,

and

what I mean by that now

is

is

my awareness

was attuned. I could feel the room

and feel it out. and

and it affected the way that I thought

about

even just being in a classroom. like small shifts in, in the tone of voice of people affected my attention. like, if a

teacher's trying

to

teach me

physics, but I know he's mad.

Like I'm

just going,

why are you so mad? Like, that's what I'm thinking about the whole time. Rather

than,

rather

than, oh, he's teaching me something that I'm

gonna have

to, that I'm gonna have to remember

later.

And

so

I didn't know. That was weird.

I didn't know

that

was different

until

I realized

that, that people didn't care.

who care? Like, yeah, he's always mad. Why would you care? Like, I, I don't actually know. I don't actually know why I care.

matt: that's a

good. just, I just do He, he, it feels like he's hurting,

Yeah,

ben: Like,

so I

don't know. But,

but

that started to translate into people coming to me and going like, Hey, this is what's going on.

Because like you were saying with your friend, you would listen and actually be with her, not

just like,

tell me your problem. I'm gonna tell you what's up. Right? Like, you were actually listening just to be, with her. And that was, that's the same, What

you interested in high school and,

and

what activities were you up to and how did that sort of

shape,

how people saw you, how you saw yourself, what you wanted to get into in the future?

matt: Yeah. in high school, I did football, basketball.

Track.

And then I sang in high school. Oh, I sang since

in middle school too. I was in choir and that was like one of the things that, because I was like, I don't wanna just be an athlete or just

be viewed as one. And I had a friend in middle school and we were, we both, we tried out for like the honor choir

and we were like, Hey, like let's, like let this be our thing that we do in high school.

that also at church as well, like doing choir stuff at

Um,

ben: as well, or,

matt: I didn't do choir stuff at church because I went to a Catholic church growing up

and then started to go to Baptist in

high school, after I went through

that stuff.

yeah,

ben: How much time did that take up with your, I mean, you did all the sports pretty much, that's like covering all of the seasons, right?

So like

matt: how,

ben: how

matt: how

ben: did

you balance all of that activity?

matt: um, I think it really just be, you became kind of used to it.

Uh, but like, it wasn't easy by any means. 'cause like you said, it was like, through every season I'm doing, I'm doing

something. And then the summers you're training for all three,

Right,

With trying to

like manage like a social life or like whatever that, whatever that is.

Yeah.

ben: And like small towns like that, sports get amplified.

And you're one of few, I'm assuming black boys that are athletic. So how'd that go? it's amplified, the community is like looking at you in a certain way. Got you.

Pinned Pin down

on,

on

like the stereotype of, oh,

you're

the

star

at,

athlete, or something

matt: yeah. Yeah. It was, yeah. Kind of similar to that. Yeah, it was, it kind of more felt like that, like my, as I got older in high school,

like my junior and senior year

of course. Like feeling like, oh, there's kind of like some expectations now

obviously like community, small town, like everybody's going to the football game on Friday

night.

Like Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

ben: Right, exactly.

That's

what I

was thinking. Like

you become,

the older, you're getting, you become more of a, of a show than a person, like a product rather than a person. so the things that you are really interested in or the things that you really see yourself as, you're fighting people's expectations versus just who you are.

matt: Yeah.

ben: I'm assuming there's a lot of people who are like, why are you wasting your time with choir? Like, whether that's

matt: coaches

or, I

don't

know, Yeah, community

members,

Oh, for sure. Or when it's like you have a conflicting event where it's like, Hey, I have to

be at this. I have to go to this choir thing

because like I'm committed to that. Or it's

like, so you're gonna miss practice

for, or like you're gonna miss film on the weekend 'cause you have to go to a choir. I'm like, well, I mean, I'm just as committed to running the football on Friday night than I,

as I am to choir because that's also a passion of mine.

I know that's weird and different 'cause you see me in this

light, but like I told them, I'm gonna sing

so that means I'm gonna sing.

ben: It, I mean, it's interesting

because it reminds

me of when you were saying, um, when we were talking about elementary school and like. You have able

to have an opinion of, of an adult,

but

not necessarily

like

verbally

con, you know, didn't really embrace verbal conflict with them a whole lot, but like I'm thinking you having a face here, football coaches and they're looking

at you.

you like, the fuck.

And

maybe even say what the coaches I had,

the coaches

I had

would've

been saying

that

to me.

'cause it,

for me

it was

orchestra. and

so,

it's, it's interesting to me to think of you, in that spot holding onto something that you value and, and pushing back on something that

matt: Somebody trying

ben: to like put on you,

matt: Yeah. Like, I can even think when we would sing, we're in the locker room, and then I'm like getting up to like go out there to sing

and then like, just get in that look of like, you're in the choir or

like, what do you like, what are you doing?

Right,

right.

Or Like, I'm trying to like, make it like a joke. Like, no, like I

actually,

like, I

gotta

go. like I'm going to actually sing. right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you're

in your

uniform

Yeah. Yeah. Like

shoulder pads

and all like, I'm out there

singing.

ben: Are you like

walking, walking,

uh,

matt: I

was

just

thinking of like

ben: your, your cleats

matt: going

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, as you like I'm the only one, I'm The only one running,

on the turf as the whole crowd can like, see me coming. They like, what is he doing? Like,

oh, he's

in the choir.

ben: what is he doing?

I'm just here to

sing. Yep. That's, that's funny. Oh, man.

So like,

how did you make the decision to go to Newton for sports? Yeah, it was, yeah, I got a football scholarship,

matt: but it was also like I still, I wanted to somewhat have my high school experience in college. I wanted to, I wanted to sing still.

I realized as I'd gotten through high school that I'm like, you actually really do like, enjoy this.

is kind of like a form of therapy to you.

And I wanna do that. And I was like, I wanna be

involved in camp on campus. And I was

a student chaplain in college was part of student government a little

bit. I wanted to like be involved at college and I was like going to A bigger place. Or even going straight to a juco. I wouldn't

get that experience. now I think about it, it's more like that relationship piece. Again, I wanted to be in different environments outside of just

football. Like I've never felt like. One of the guys in football as I played, I've

always been like, this is just something that I do where I reach other people,

ben: Say more. reach

other

matt: I feel like my calling for me is like to build relationships and impact

and like spread the word cause you can tell like, oh, like you can see somebody like, oh, like they're a

light. I hope to be that for like

people. It was

Yeah.

like that's what football

was for me.

ben: Interesting. Um, that's, it's how does your faith, I mean, been touching on, on your faith through this whole time but like how has your faith influenced, let me back up. There's a few things I'm thinking of. One is this Gemini piece.

'cause it said something about juggling a lot of different social groups, football, or

sports groups.

They seem like

one kind of vibe. And then like, choir kids are a different vibe. Right.

And

for me growing up, from the basketball team to the orchestra kids, to the, like choir at

church,

they were all different vibes.

And so that's one thing I'm thinking is like, okay, you are, you're social obviously, and you're able to move, move in between these groups pretty easily. Two, the faith piece part of what I hear you saying, like that's part of this. It's like you want to be able to move from different places to be able to create relationships for a meaning, for a purpose. And you said you can see people that are sort of a light. And I'm curious just what that means exactly for you and, and, how it's come about.

matt: yeah, I think that phrase has came to fruition like in college for me, and looking back, I see it like in high school, just the people that I surrounded

myself with But yeah, I think. My faith, once I went through that experience my sophomore

year, got connected with, my pastor in Chanute, who was also like a black male, and he like gave me tools and like helped me on my journey.

And then that really is when like I started to take it into my own hands is like,,

Yeah.

like this is kind of who I want to be now

and how I want to attempt to live my life. 'cause

I'm, everybody falls short, but like, this is who I kind of want to try to try to

be. And then when I got to college, it was like, yeah, like you said, juggling those different groups.

It was like, yeah, to not look at it as like it being stressful, but being like, I'm in these different groups for a reason. Who are the people that I need to pour into

or that like, need that kind of, just that energy.

ben: Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's just this, paying attention to the needs of other people, where they're at, wanting to be generous.

matt: Yeah,

ben: Yeah.

matt: because I think in, in Chanute I was like you said, everything's amplified and sports and everything. Like, becomes who you are,

It's like that's Matt Hernandez. he plays on the football team.

So like I started to wear that identity

through three different seasons.

ben: It feels like that, label, that role people wanted to put you in was, probably interesting. It was probably fun at times, but also unfulfilling just feels like there's not a whole lot of connection.

That your heart was wanting.

matt: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean I think it was a battle in college still,

it didn't really click, click for

me my junior year of being like, dude, you're driving yourself insane. Trying

to like, you're not, You're not just a football player.

you have so many other pockets

of people that you're impacting and like

pouring into.

Like, think about that. why am I still thinking about practice on a Tuesday

and it's Thursday and I'm still beating myself up about

ben: Right,

I'm curious too, like what was the decision? So like in the, for me, there were people like you were talking about in my life like, pastors that took me under their wing kind of mentored me, things like that.

And, I wanted to go into ministry. That was the, first piece, like I, I cared about people I knew when they were hurting, wanted to be of service. and I think similarly I would feel compelled and motivated to help other people that were hurting more than I was myself but How

did you choose social work over something like being a pastor? Like the mentor you were talking about in Chanute.

[: 00:41:41

---

matt: honestly, I had my first year seminar teacher in college who was also my choir instructor.

He was extremely influential over my

four years in helping me grow. But it's one of those people that, again, that I think saw something in me that I didn't see quite

yet, or the light bulb hadn't clicked on

yet, and he was extremely tough on me and like my writing and stuff like that.

But then like, when it came to like figuring out, you know, what it, what's like something that you'd be interested in

doing, because I had like ideas of things, but I was like, I'm not passionate about something yet. And I felt, I was like, I know I'm a passionate person, so like it's

not, where is it clicking for

me? And like at the end of my, going into my sophomore year, we were kind of putting my schedule together.

I. And he was like, you know, why don't you try like this, this class? I was like, intro to social work. And I'm like, I mean, I guess I don't really

like, I don't really

know,

like

really even what, like

I've heard of them.

heard of social workers, but I don't really know what it entails.

And I got in the class and the professor that I had, uh, she was great. the way she engaged with the material, I was like, I think we might be onto something here.

And I was just like, wow. Like I, I was like, I actually want to go read like my textbook after

this. yeah,

Like, I'm, I'm interested.

And then she, it felt like she'd like brought the material like to

ben: Mm-Hmm.

matt: I was like, I haven't experienced this yet.

ben: that's, that's

like a turning point, right? Where you're living life, you're creative, you're sort

of

ex, you're expressive,

you're interested in people, you care about people, and you want to pour into them, invest in them, and then you like These social work classes are like turning into a passion, a motivation, like a deeper calling, a deeper mission.

A deeper purpose.

matt: Yeah,

So how did how did you decide one to

go

to

ben: your master's

matt: two? What

ben: to do with it after?

[: 00:43:32

---

matt: Yeah, I think I never saw myself being in a school. I didn't think I did. And then I had an internship my senior year at a school in Newton, and then I was like reflecting on just like what my experience was like in

school. And I was like, yeah. I was like, I didn't have, not in middle school or elementary, an adult that I really like.

I. Gravitated towards or like could talk to about Yeah, just like anything. And I was like, Hmm, I might be onto

something. Yeah.

I was like, if I could be that for one kid, two kid,

that would be, that would be interesting. Right. And I had a really, like my experience at my I internship was like amazing. It was great.

And then,

ben: it? What, what did you do?

matt: I was with the school social worker at a five six center and was doing a lot similar stuff to what I'm doing now. Like, I had my own kids that I would see individually and we would social emotional

talk about anything. And then I had a small groups that I was like facilitating

And then would just go in a classroom, just like

be around kids and just like hang out

ben: Five, six, like you were saying, that's fifth and sixth grade,

right. So we're talking like 10,

11 year olds. so I've, I've done pediatric therapy and a lot of my sessions were folding paper airplanes, throwing stuff around the room, playing like paper, basketball And, laughing yoga, like, fake laugh until you actually start laughing, So what

was

that

like

for you when like you're trying to engage

these

kids in conversation and relationship. What did you have to do to do that?

matt: Well, if you ask my friends, they, they would probably describe me as like a big kid.

Okay.

So to get to that level wasn't difficult

for me, but like. a lot of, a lot of uno,

like a lot of, uh, just making silly, goofy noises and just going this, just like going along with

it and just being like, okay, so what we're

doing, we're humming, buzzing.

We're, making silly

faces. Okay. Like, let's, let's do it.

But yeah, a

lot of just

open-mindedness and just being flexible.

ben: open

and flexible and playful.

Yeah. Yep. I didn't know that. Well, I know that well,

matt: Um,

ben: just a, another thing that the Gemini thing said, so I don't know.

matt: maybe this

is something,

maybe

this is something. Oh man.

okay,

ben: look, this was, this was

in Newton still, and then how did you find

matt: your

ben: program?

matt: Um, my school social worker that I was under, she went through the same program.

And like, I have family up here and I was like Kansas City's, it was always like a great place for me growing up.

'cause we would come up here, for tournaments and stuff like

that. And I was just like, I don't like change, but I know change is necessary and

like, I like to get outta my comfort

zone. I was like, this would, like, this would do it.

Like, because like I was like, I could easily stay in Wichita

and 'cause my, my friend group, they're younger than me, so they're still, they're seniors this year and then one's a junior. So like, I'd still be close to

them, but I was like, I don't think that's what's, what's

good for me.

ben: So the friends that you made in Newton, they're graduating from their bachelor's

matt: Yeah. And

ben: so you're two or three years ahead.

matt: yeah, one's a junior. Two

ben: Yeah.

ben: I'm just thinking, well, you just graduated. Your friends are down there.

matt: Yeah. I don't know. 'cause one one's getting married and he's gonna be living in Bartlesville And then another, he's still working things out. but he's gonna be a strength coach,

and then the other, he's into ministry, he'll probably still be around that

area.

'cause he has a, he has a girlfriend,

so yeah, I think we're all gonna be spread, spread out

and we know that, so yeah.

ben: came up

to Kansas City was that right after you graduated?

matt: Yeah.

ben: and then went straight into school.

matt: Yeah. Straight

into it in June,

ben: And then, uh. Two years straight or no,

matt: just

one.

ben: Just one. Oh, okay.

Got it, got it, got it, got it. So you did like the, the, fast

track

matt: the advanced

ben: Was that a ton of work?

matt: it was interesting. I was like, I know you can juggle it it was similar to my, what my senior year was like, my undergrad

of like class

practicum. But then it was like just constantly feeling like tired.

'cause you're like, I've gotta get at least 16 hours this week. Then you gotta try to work. Then you've got class all day Thursday and then, oh yeah, do your homework on the weekend too, and make sure you read so you're

ready for. everything

next week. we would all talk about it's hard to like explain to somebody because it was like you talk about it with your other friends or people

like that, I'm like, oh, that's not that bad.

Like, like you can do it.

Like, it's like, okay,

ben: What,

matt: Do you

have a

ben: a job while you were, while

matt: uh, I, I, was a sub.

I

substitute taught. did

you

get

paid

ben: your internship at all?

matt: That was probably one of the more frustrating parts,

Right.

ben: Well, yeah. You're just like, free labor

man, and this, it's not easy stuff.

ben: you're not just doing academic work.

you're doing emotional labor, right? I mean, it's taxing even being in class I need to know how to use this with people.

so

it was, regularly trying to like think about the situations in my practicum and internship to be able to apply the stuff that I was learning. I mean, that doesn't sound, I mean that sounds pretty typical, But when, the. content of how to apply this is, okay. So that gal, she's got ghosts living in her house. She interacts with these hallucinations. she's suicidal sometimes but also she's like super, super sweet, And you just want the best for her. Like, that kind of stuff is heavy.

So when I hear you saying like, you're substitute teaching, you're going to class, you're doing 16 hours a week, all day, all day. Thursday is class, The whole way through, I'm thinking, oh my God, like when you said you were tired, I'm like, yeah, I, I feel it.

Deep down in, in me, like, yes, that is exhausting. Like, like, oh my God, I'm so tired.

Like,

how did you, how did you take care of yourself

and how did you real, like

matt: Um,

I think being more intentional about it, like being like, yeah, like this

is, this is your time that you're gonna set for

yourself. I work out, like that's

my, that's why somewhere where my mind like shuts off and I'm just

in the moment

I like to journal and read my Bible

and listen to worship music.

'cause it's another thing

where it's like my mind shut off and I'm just in this moment. It was like, okay, so when are you gonna do those things? Or like,

or like the my people that give me life when like setting times like, oh yeah, I'm gonna call you on this

day 'cause I need this conversation.

Like for myself. But different than college because I was

ben: Right. 'cause you just got

to, it was always

accessible.

It

always

came

natural.

There wasn't like tons of stress always encroaching on all

of that time. it's coming to my mind right now too. Like, the way that you were saying that was like, oh God, that easily becomes just another thing that you have to do,

matt: yeah,

ben: because it becomes intentional and you know you have to, or you will drown,

matt: yeah.

ben: then it's like, another slot on your calendar.

And if I don't know that, I feel like that's the, the conundrum with all of this how do you use it to stay present and to actually allow it to work you're so goddamn tired.

matt: Mm-Hmm. Like how do you get yourself to shut all the other stuff

off and be in this

moment? Because like, oh, there'd be plenty of times where I'm like doing those things, but still thinking of the other things that I have to get done or like, what's next?

How do I like zero in on that? And just be like, okay, those things are still there.

ben: Yeah.

We care so much about people that it's, it is like a, it's a moral, thing inside of us, Like you were saying earlier that, this new job that you've got, it's been hard

to

speak up with all the people around you that are, a lot more experienced than you, until it came to them fucking with your kids.

Right? And then you're like, oh, hell no.

Yeah.

Right? Like

matt: you

came

ben: to

their,

you, you came to their aid Right.

And

so

to me

that's,

that is a part of this, is that it, it our. Our relationship with people who need a hand, who need support, who, are struggling with things that are out of their control your kids at school, they can't choose or influence the way that the adults talk about them, And so when there's a quote that I really love, it's, it says, uh,

matt: when

I

ben: met with another's vulnerability. Hurt or suffering? Um, how does it go?

It's something around just this idea of being captured by their vulnerability and I can't help but take action. this is the kind of thing that we're trying to do for people, While also not losing ourselves. And when taking care of ourselves becomes another slot on the calendar. feel like that's where it's impossible.

the type of energy that happens, that moves us into a work like this. None of us are passionate about, bubble baths. Or kale or uh, yoga or meditation

matt: or,

ben: I would even

imagine

working out,

even if it's like super important,

there's something

about

being compelled by a young child's need that overtakes you in a way that those weights will never overtake

you. Right.

matt: And

it

ben: it's, almost spiritual in that way. And that's where where we get it sort of wrong in education, where we get it wrong in our workplaces is that we don't turn toward each other and

matt: realize

ben: that this is part of what's missing. this is lonely work because of that. have you seen that? Have you experienced that?

matt: yeah, I think, that's why like class, like I felt Compelled to ask if I could do this.

'cause I was like, what's the worst? They're gonna say no. Like,

ben: Okay. Right. Yeah. We don't take

students

like, what are you talking about?

we're just

here to

talk to you, not

to

matt: actually

ben: have

a relationship with you,

because that's the typical thing,

right? Yeah.

That's,

matt: That's,

how you're

treated

like

it works. Yeah.

Yeah.

ben: like,

oh, that's

cute.

matt: yeah.

ben: oh, you're so like bright-eyed, bushy tailed. Like,

matt: You guys could

ben: you could easily be

matt: Hey, this was just for show. Like,

we didn't actually, like we didn't, we were, that's

ben: that's just No. Yeah, we right.

matt: there's just not spaces to like have conversations like this or like,

not, not everybody understands

the work that we do.

And it's for me it's like, yeah, like. There needs to be, spaces like this to have these conversations.

cause it is, like you said,

lonely work. And it can and it can be.

ben: Yeah. And I mean, I think it, like we're all, we're all turned toward the people who need help and the systems that fuck people up, right? We all wanna change those things and we want to help those people. and we're, I don't know, it's like we're all lined up, facing these problems trying to, trying to solve 'em or shoulder to shoulder and we forget to turn toward each other and go, you doing all right? This is fucking hard. I don't know, we forget we're human,

matt: Yeah, like it just happened the other day at work. We had a intense situation and the middle school counselor that I'm close with, she came by later and I was busy. I was with a student and I went and found

her after that and she's like, she like, I was just coming like to check to see like if you were like,

okay. Yeah, She like, 'cause like that was

ben: that's,

matt: And she's like, I just wanted make sure like you

ben: yeah. Right?

matt: was just like,

ben: Yeah.

matt: Like we don't do that enough.

ben: No,

matt: appreciate that you.

ben: I mean, even just like thinking about your classes, because I'm sure there's friends, that you had, that you were like, Hey, this has been a really hard week, like. In class. I mean, I, maybe, maybe Annas was a little bit different.

She's like a different kind of teacher. She's a different kind of professor. Okay. Because she's, she cares more about people than

she

does about grades and

Yeah.

but

I'm thinking about my classes. Like, it, it felt very competitive.

Like I got the best grades, so now I'm the most, I'm the best counselor

kind

of

thing. We're the only people we really understand what we do

matt: Yeah.

ben: and why we do it.

matt: Yeah.

ben: So

getting

into

this is

sort of like

matt: about

ben: about self care, but it's also trying to hit on what do we need to be able to.

Do self care? Well, what are your thoughts on this

matt: I think spaces like this are gonna become even more important and just communities where our people can sit down and like

talk and be like, what's going on with you this week at work? Like how, like how is

it? Or like how are you handling that?

Like

we have our little group of small group of friends that we like, we all met each other at grad school and like, we

became kind of like a crew

and like we, when we hang out, like we're

able to like talk about that. Insane incident that happened on

Monday that I couldn't talk about with

my boys that are like my guys.

'cause they just know how to react to it.

ben: Right.

matt: don't that on them. It's just not

ben: No, I mean, that's the thing too, right? And you don't want to, share all of the details 'cause it's really heavy.

It's like, I don't wanna hurt you or make this awkward.

So just sort of keep it to myself. , I, to me it's like the self-care that's always preached at us

is mechanical. And it's like, Hey, just go get your oil changed, man.

just go get a tuneup and you'll be all right. Like, you'll be able to survive now. the discipline for that. Yes. Okay. I get it. I understand. We all need to be disciplined. We all need to make sure we're getting the rest, getting the nutrition, uh, taking care of our emotion, know, making sure that we're rejuvenated to be able to do the hard work we do.

But

what happens with when that's not enough. like I said earlier, none of those things will I be

as

as naturally passionate about

matt: as.

ben: to take care of other people and to

experience

literally

feeling

like

compelled to help a vulnerable child.

matt: yeah.

ben: Child. And that's where I feel like the relational piece is missing in our professions.

we need each other. Do you have any thoughts that are coming to mind as, as I'm just sitting here pontificating

matt: Many, many thoughts because I'm also a processor, so I'm listening.

I'm like, Sure.

, yeah, let me, let me, I was like, oh, yeah, that's a good point. That's another one.

Yeah.

let me sit on that. But yeah, I think of just the images that are thrown at us, throughout, society now

where it's like, me, me, me, me, me.

Like, you need to do what you gotta do for yourself. Or like,

everyone's on the track to like, I gotta get rich somehow. Like, I gotta

do this, I gotta do that. conversations in the media and things like that aren't being said to like, check on this person. see how they're doing.

and now self-care is a slogan, like

everybody says it. since Covid, it's the new phrase to say,

like, yeah, we put it on everything. Like

you go into interviews and it's like, yeah, we promote self-care. I'm

like, what are you, Like

What

Like what?

What do you say? Like,

So

when I, need when I

say I need to take

a

day

off,

for Selfcare,

is that actually

gonna be

ben: Oh, I mean, we encourage you to

go

get

a massage

matt: after work.

ben: not we care to say it. yeah,

don't wanna, we are actually gonna follow through.

matt: yeah, yeah, I'm just, I'm on just like. Images that you see

like on your phone, what you listen to

and how that just can affect your overall, just like morale and like

Yeah. That's been just a recent shift for me,

Within like the last year of what I listen to and what I see all the time that actually It's not like

I'm walking around 'cause I listen to a rap song. I'm going to go off on the

next person I see.

But like my inner, like how I

actually feel. It's like, oh, okay.

Yeah. I,

ben: to me, what I'm hearing you say is a gentle understanding you've come to, gentle, but firm.

Like I get how I need to pay attention to what I consume.

matt: Yeah.

ben: This is important. I can prevent problems, more if I just make this somewhat uncomfortable choice right now. Right. And it, and it, it's like a, It's,

to me, that's where I found the most meaning in self-care when I make that choice of, do I spend more time on my phone. Or do I go meditate? that's few moments of discomfort for like a few hours of peace, similarly, just to take you back I don't know when I messaged you again. but we got attacked by that dog and I've

been having a hard time sleeping nightmares about it. Flashbacks, like all this shit, like it's been a thing. Got back into therapy, it's going well. but I have been a lot less active.

in things like, I'm not reaching out to friends as much. I'm not even walking as much. 'cause being outside has been

hard. so I'm listening to a podcast and I'm playing a video game at the same time. And I wake up, I get this, thing of like, stop, what are you doing?

And I go, okay, what am I, what am I doing I, I turned everything off. I went and meditated. it, I don't know, something came to me and I was like, you know what? The day you got attacked, he were supposed to go see Matt, don't you reach out to him. So that's very similar of like the, that choice, that the choice of discomfort of stop, stop.

What are you, what are you doing? Like, you could do something that's fulfilling, or you could do something that is just for now, like, just in this present moment. Like it's just like sugary and, and not really, nurturing. anyways, all of that to say the hard choices that are preventative, that's not a sexy way to self-care. It's not sexy. Like Something I've always wanted to try was the, sensory deprivation Have you ever heard of that? you like go lay in

matt: a,

ben: a pod that has like a ton of

salt water

in it and it's like inside. pitch black So you're just like You're just like, you're just floating. So like you can't see anything. You can't feel anything

matt: Wow.

ben: like

sensory deprivation.

And

so

I've always

wanted to do that.

That's

more

of like,

Fun, sexy thing. What'd you do for self-care? Oh, that's a good story.

Where I go,

well, I stopped playing video

games

and I started to meditate. That's not a sexy story, right?

matt: Yeah. Yeah.

ben: It's like, like that's not a compelling, like, ooh, I wanna listen to that.

It's, it's boring and I don't know. just reminded me of all that, like what you were saying of just invest in the future sort of choice.

matt: Yeah,

ben: well,

matt: we've

ben: talking

for so long.

But,

um,

the

last part

that Blakely likes to, ask

is,

what's your favorite, your favorite representation of a helper in media? it could be your favorite because you

like

it

it could be your favorite '

cause you hate it.

in, in movies or, or TV or books

matt: favorite in media. That's a good one. I'm trying to think. 'cause I've been limiting my,

like, just what I've

been like seeing and who I'm

giving, like my giving my,

ben: Like actually, like actually I've been, uh, self caring. Um, so I'm not super into it.

So we've had,

we've had people talk about, the show shrinking, on Apple tv. We've had people talk about like the medical, social workers, and. Like Grey's Anatomy, oh, just the stereotype of like, social workers, just take babies,

matt: yeah. Yeah.

ben: uh, there's

a,

there's a therapist, like a family therapist on a show that, Lakey told me about it. It was Rick and Morty. I've only seen the one episode, but like, this therapist was hilarious. Like, that was probably my favorite one to like, was, it's called Pickle Rick, goes to therapy or something like, so

those

are

some

things that people have talked about.

I don't know if that rings any bells for you

matt: I think the one that was interesting was the like idea of social workers just just take

kids and like that

whole paradigm of like a narrative and

how it's not the case at all

and we actually can't really. Like, like do

ben: Like that's only

a fraction of

the

social workers but it doesn't show any of the work that they're trying to do to keep the kids with the family.

Right,

matt: our, like our mindset is never like,

ben: right,

matt: what we need to do.

right.

It's like, what? Right.

ben: right. right. we,

We,

we

know

that

the foster

care

system is amazing. We wanna

take all the kids and put 'em

matt: right.

ben: yeah.

So,

matt: no.

Yeah,

ben: Oh,

Well,

I don't know, did

matt: we, miss

anything?

I feel like we covered so

ben: Yeah, so much,

matt: so

ben: so

much,

so many. I know,

matt: that I

did not

ben: even

expect,

you're like, I dunno.

Like, what else do you want, man? Like, right. Oh,

matt: Oh,

ben: oh my God. Well,

I

mean,

it,

it's been, it's been a pleasure. I thank you for sharing so much. Like,

matt: I

mean, I

feel

like

there's so much, there's so much similarity Yeah.

ben: that's amazing.

matt: yeah, no, thank you for having me. I mean, I knew it's something I wanted to do, but I was

like, I don't know if I'll ever get the opportunity

Right. To like do it like, Right.

I, was like, when am I, We,

were trying, were trying. I was, well, I was like, when am I ever gonna meet somebody that has a podcast that's gonna want to like,

have me on it?

That I would

actually want to have meaningful conversations

that I would feel like would represent what I kind of

like Go for.

And then I was like, oh, shout out to Annas.

ben: I know. For real, right?

oh my

God.

matt: Well, I

thank

ben: you for

coming out.

I'm glad we finally got to do this. Yeah, I Appreciate it.

Appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely.

All right, well, Thank

you everybody for listening.

We're so happy to have you. Glad you were able to hang out with us today.

Uh, if you could do us a favor

and, give us a review. Uh, there's not many on

Apple podcasts right now, so go in there, tell us what you've enjoyed. what's, what this has meant to you.

We really appreciate your listening

and, uh, yeah.

Thanks Matt.

Appreciate it.

matt: Thank

ben: All right, man.